FUSsa-talk Mailing List: Fw: P&J#2143: Responses to the Manhattan Declaration, Glenn Greenwald and Bill Moyers, Etc.‏

[MADELINE SIMON (madeline-mpls]

Dick Bernard's P&J list interesting dialogue and information on the Manhattan 
Declaration.

Peace,
Madeline
 


The half-hour Bill Moyers/Glenn Greenwald conversation is very good.  Worth a 
watch. 
Several people have commented on the Radical Religious Right Wings Manhattan 
Declaration.  The comments so far are below.  I do recommend taking some time 
to really read this declaration, and who signed it and to scroll around the 
site.  It's verbiage is meant to sound positive, but it's intention is right 
there, clearly, on the home page: to paraphrase the few words, there: no 
abortion, no gay stuff, right to refuse to do legal things one disagrees with - 
like selling contraceptives.   It is sold as "pro"; it is completely "anti".
The signers are the heavy hitters of the farthest reaches of the Religious 
Right.  I went to the "contact us" page, and they don't accept communications 
other than from organizations.  They want the leaders.  As I write, there are 
13,696 signers to the petition (which is very, very low,given the high profile 
roll-out).  Best as I can gather, Abp Nienstedt is the only Minnesotan signing 
the Declaration; the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has roughly the same 
numbers as the U.S. Congress (435 in Congress), so with roughly 14 signers, 
only a handful of them have signed on  (This is a hopeful sign to me).  
Only About 10% of the original declaration signers are women.
This is not a Catholic Deal; it not only is not a Catholic Deal, but it's 
appeal is only to a narrow base of Catholics.  Best as I can tell, among the 
signers the Catholics who have signed the Declaration are less, in relation to 
the whole, than Catholics in the general population.  
I think it is possible to diminish its impact, locally, early.  Think 
creatively.  I'll write the Archbishop, again, and copy to assorted persons who 
I think might like to know.  His address: Archbishop John Nienstedt, 
Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis, 226 Summit Avenue, 55102.    
(One slightly amusing sidelight: at the very end of the Declaration, second 
paragraph from the end, the signers piously refer to Martin Luther King's 
Letter from a Birmingham Jail, apparently to justify civil disobedience of 
their (hoped for) legions of disciples.  
I have a little familiarity with that letter.  About three years ago, Lydia 
Howell sent me a copy of MLK's 1964 book, "Why We Can't Wait", which outlined 
the tumultuous Civil Rights events of 1963, including King's being jailed in 
Birmingham around Easter time.  I decided in the spring to read that short 
book, and I read it at the Cathedral of St. Paul, one chapter a day.  "Letter 
from Birmingham Jail", I note, was read in Pew 39 at the Cathedral, 14 April 
2007 at 2 p.m.  There was a wedding going on at the time.  
What the Declaration doesn't mention, and as I'll point out to Nienstedt, is 
that King's Letter of April 16, 1963, the one I read in his Cathedral on the 
afternoon of April 14, 2007, was addressed to "My Dear Fellow Clergymen" - he 
wrote it primarily to fellow clerics, eight primary leaders of which had 
publicly advised him to back off from the nonsense of Civil Rights 
demonstrations in Birmingham.  The signers of their letter included the major 
Church leaders of Alabama.  The Bishop of Alabama later prohibited Catholic 
Priests and Nuns from entering the state to engage in protests (an order which 
was ignored.)
(Later I had a hard time finding the actual Church leaders letter, the one to 
which MLK was responding, on the internet.  The copy I finally found was one I 
could not copy, so I handwrote it, and transferred it to P&J#1372, dated April 
23, 2007.  The high and mighty clergy letter which led to Kings Letter from a 
Birmingham Jail is at the end of this P&J.  
One wonders how today's Manhattan Declaration hypocrites would deal with a 
present day Martin Luther King....)
Have a great day.
If there was ever a time for action, on this, and on the health care reform 
issue, now is that time.

*

Begin forwarded message:


From: "Peter Barus" <peter [at] barus.com>
Date: November 21, 2009 12:09:22 PM CST
To: Dick_Bernard <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: Glenn Greenwald and Bill Moyers


Dick,

Michael Schwartz sent this link to the Moyers interview:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/10/web_exclusive_glenn_greenwald.html

Love

Peter

*
Will Shapira
Nov 21: As at least one local peacenik has suggested, it's time for a mass 
movement to end tax exemption for politically religions and their 
organizations. ws
*



From: Paul Miller <thehaitiman [at] msn.com>
Date: November 21, 2009 8:37:08 AM CST
To: Dick Bernard <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: RE: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration


I think they have adopted Groover Nordquist's axiom modified somewhat to fit 
their also deluded mental state, "we are going to shrink religion down to the 
size where we can drown it in a bathtub", unfortunately they will drive sane 
people away from religion why playing a large role in our country's political 
bent by defining the mindset of the unthinking masses                           
                                                                     

*



From: "Rowley Clan" <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>
Date: November 21, 2009 8:37:01 AM CST
To: "'Dick Bernard'" <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: RE: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration
Reply-To: <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>


The right-wing fundamentalism will prevail (as they do own the airwaves)
just as most of the clergy in Nazi Germany ended up swearing allegiance to
Hitler.  You must quickly suggest for the "spiritual progressive" side to
produce their own "manifesto" to counter this.  Coleen R. *



From: "Jeff Pricco" <jpricco [at] jbglobalco.com>
Date: November 21, 2009 9:01:16 AM CST
To: "'Dick Bernard'" <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: RE: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration


To be honest Dick, I have become very upset with this. It is the reason I
left the church completely in the first place, and now it gets worse. 


As a letter to the editor this week in the STrib mentioned in re an article
or letter about the USA ambassador to the Vatican not being in line with the
orthodox RC teaching.... I am sure you saw it... the writer reminded that
the ambassador represents the United States and its Government,   he does
not represent the Catholic church in the USA.
*



From: "Rowley Clan" <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>
Date: November 21, 2009 9:11:29 AM CST
To: "'Dick Bernard'" <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Cc: "'Raymond L McGovern'" <rrmcgovern [at] gmail.com>
Subject: RE: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration
Reply-To: <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>




I just noticed two things about this Declaration:
 
1)  The supposedly "pro-life" document does not mention wars of aggression or 
torture (or the U.S. role in either of those items) as being a problem.  The 
document instead focuses almost solely on sanctity of marriage (code for 
pointing to gays) and abortion as being the two evils.  Only in one catch-all 
paragraph, does it list the world's genocides, human trafficking, etc. but it 
seems to attribute these maladies back to lack of sanctity of marriage and 
abortion. 
 
2) Almost all petitions not only provide for signers' identities (just not 
their addresses) to appear and be public but often allow signers to write their 
own comments.  Notice this manifesto, however, is a tightly controlled, 
top-down one that does not provide for any public comment or feedback to be 
publicized on its website.  Signers' identities are even kept secret.   
 
"Everything secret degenerates....nothing is safe that does not show how it can 
bear discussion and publicity."   Lord Acton 
 
No wonder the Catholics (evangelicals and other fundamentalists), when polled, 
now see “God on their side” and favor continuing the wars and torture!  I am 
forwarding to Ray McGovern as he may know some in the “spiritual progressives” 
like Wallis or Lerner or in the NCRAT group who could write to point out the 
weaknesses/clever artifice of this document and counter the effect of this 
sweeping blind fundamentalism.
 
Coleen R.
*



From: "Rowley Clan" <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>
Date: November 21, 2009 9:17:49 AM CST
To: "'Dick Bernard'" <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: RE: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration
Reply-To: <rowleyclan [at] earthlink.net>


As you well know, the document is
cleverly constructed to gain as much support as possible but in a blind (our
way or the highway "you're with us or against us" way).  There is nothing to
disagree with in 95% of the document---it is only the clever way it
attributes the world's problems solely to lack of sanctity of marriage
(including gays and abortion) and ignores the much more directly responsible
issue of people who support governments that condone killing and torture,
etc.  The best lies are constructed this way, almost all true but just a bit
of falsity.  The reason they are careful not to provide public comment on
the manifesto is they know people like you would see through it and expose
the hypocrisy of their "pro-life" movement.    Coleen R.
*



From: Andy Driscoll <andy [at] driscollgroup.com>
Date: November 21, 2009 11:30:26 AM CST
To: Dick Bernard <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: Re: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration


The Catholic Church is running completely amok.
*



From: Jim Fuller <jim [at] jamesclayfuller.com>
Date: November 21, 2009 11:43:26 AM CST
To: Dick Bernard <dick_bernard [at] msn.com>
Subject: Re: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration


Wow.  Some people are "disposed toward homosexual behavior just as some are 
disposed toward other types of immoral behavior..."  (That's close, perhaps not 
exact quote.)

Looks like a new multi-religion Inquisition.  (Of course, after they've killed 
off/tortured all of us infidels, they'll start on each other.)

Arrogance unmatched even by the extremists of the Republican far right.

jcf
*



From: Ginny <marti137 [at] tc.umn.edu>
Date: November 21, 2009 12:22:47 PM CST
To: Jim Fuller <jim [at] jamesclayfuller.com>
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration]


And most of them are men, of course.

Jim Fuller wrote:

The note here is from a Catholic man who is active in his church and in 
political/peace activities....
*





From: welavender [at] aol.com
Date: November 21, 2009 3:49:37 PM CST
To: dick_bernard [at] msn.com
Subject: Re: P&J#2142:  The Manhattan Declaration


I shudder to recognize these good Christian folk think defending the weak and 
vulnerable in society translates into protecting institutions defined by 
secure, privileged, wealthy people--institutions which have too often oppressed 
those they claim to defend.  The chasm gets wider and wider. 
*
>From P&J#1372 April 23, 2007:

The Letter of Eight White Clergy leaders which led to King's Letter from 
Birmingham Jail:  [NOTE: As one who spent an entire career in organizing 
settings, this letter is a classic example of how power people use their power 
to manipulate others of lesser power.  It was very interesting to read.]

"We, the undersigned clergymen are among those who, in January, issued "An 
Appeal for Law and Order and Common Sense," in dealing with racial problems in 
Alabama.  We expressed understanding that honest convictions in racial matters 
could properly be pursued in the courts, but urged that decisions of those 
courts should in the meantime be peacefully obeyed.

Since that time there had been some evidence of increased forbearance and a 
willingness to fact facts.  Responsible citizens have undertaken to work on 
various problems which cause racial frictions and uncrest.  In Birmingham, 
recent public events have given indication that we will have opportunity for a 
new constructive and realistic approach to racial matters.

However we are now confronted by a series of demonstrations by some of our 
Negro citizens, directed and led in part by outsiders.  We recognize the 
natural impatience of people who feel that their hopes are slow in being 
realized.  But we are convinced that these demonstrations are unwise and 
untimely.

We agree rather with certain local Negro leadership which has called for honest 
and open negotiations of racial issues in our area.  And we believe this kind 
of facing of issues can best be accomplished by citizens of our own 
metropolitan area, white and Negro, meeting with their knowledge and experience 
of the local situation.  All of us need to face that responsibility and find 
proper channels for its accomplishment.

Just as we formerly pointed out that "hatred and violence have no sanction in 
our religious and political traditions", we also point out that such actions as 
incite to hatred and violence, however technically peaceful those actions might 
be, have not contributed to the resolution of our local problems.  We do not 
believe that these days of new hope are days when extreme measures are 
justified in Birmingham.

We commend the community as a whole, and the local news media and law 
enforcement officials in particular, on the calm manner in which the 
demonstrations have been handled.  We urge the public to continue to show 
restraint should the demonstrations continue, and the law enforcement officials 
to remain calm and continue to protect our city from violence.

We further strongly urge our own Negro Community to withdraw support from these 
demonstrations, and to unite locally in working peacefully for a better 
Birmingham.  When rights are consistently denied, a cauise should be pressed in 
the courts and in negtotations among local leaders and not in the streets.  We 
appeal to both our white and Negro citizenry to observe the principles of law 
and order and common sense.

(s)

CCJ Carpenter DD LLD Bishop of Alabama 
Joseph Durick DD Auxiliary Bishop of Diocese of Mobile-Birmingham 
Rabbi Milton L Grafman, Temple Emanu-El, Birmingham 
Bishop Paul Hardin, Bishop of Alamaba-West Florida Conference of Methodist 
Church 
Bishop Nolan B. Harmon, Bishop of North Alabama Conf of Methodist Church 
George Murray DD LLD, Bishop Coadjutor, Episcopal Diocese of Alabama 
Edward V. Ramage, Moderator, Synod of Alabama Presbyterian Church in the U.S. 
Earl Stallings, Pastor, First Baptist Church of Birmingham